We’re going to talk about the nether regions… and the high percentage of women that orgasm during anal sex!
I’ve always loved the idea of anal sex… so dirty (literally), nasty, raunchy, tight…
Any way you do her vaginally CAN NOT COMPARE to the outright nasty/sexy/satisfying combination that is penetrating her anally.
During vaginal sex, she is giving herself to you sexually… during anal sex, you are TAKING it…
The Amount Of Women That Have Anal Sex
In my personal experience, most women don’t like anal sex at first.
It’s too painful, too intrusive.. they feel. “Exit only”, many say…
This survey, albeit not a large survey, showed that 31 out of 199 women had partaken in anal sex in the last 12 months; approximately 15%.
This seems representative of the amount of women I’ve spoken with who enjoy anal sex, or who have it on a regular basis.
Regardless of this small amount of women who take part in getting it in the butt, there are ways to further persuade women to open up to having anal sex.
How To Get A Woman To Agree To Anal Sex
I’ve managed to “win over” more than a few women who had never had anal sex.
What’s worked in my case is to get her to agree to doing it as an “award” for something, in the not-so-far future… font instance:
“Babe, can we do something interesting on my birthday?… it would be the most amazing gift for me”
“Babe, I really want to try something with you, on our anniversary? Something new?”
It’s easier for her to commit if it’s in the future, but once that day comes, it’ll be hard for her to get out.
Another thing, someone in sales once gave me this advice: you need to present something to a customer 7 times before they actually buy…
Just bring it up from time to time… don’t get too annoying, though.
And there’s a strong possibility that once she tries it, she’ll love it, and want to have anal sex on a regular basis moving forward.
94% of Women Have An Orgasm During Anal Sex
Out of the 31 women who responded positively in the survey, 94% had had an orgasm during anal sex!
That’s an amazingly high amount!
That’s a higher percentage than women who had an orgasm during vaginal sex (65% or so) or even oral sex (81%).
How To Make A Woman Orgasm During Anal Sex
Apparently, it’s not all that difficult to make a woman orgasm during anal sex.
I’ve never conducted my own survey after anally penetrating a woman, but looking back maybe I should have… however, in a very interestingly written article by a 39 year old woman who likes anal sex, there are some steps to be taken to ensure a better chance of your lady orgasming from anal penetration:
Penetrate her vaginally, without allowing her to orgasm
Some teasing/finger play in her anus
Then anal
An important prerequisite is that she be very turned on, and adding in manual clitoral stimulation on her own can help her have a doubly-powerful orgasm from two places at once.
An if you are wondering just how does a woman orgasm during anal sex? Scientifically / anatomically, I’m not sure… but in the 39 year-old MILF’s words:
“[Anal sex] gives me mind-blowing orgasms — I’ve thought many times that my G-spot is in my ass. I can definitely orgasm with only anal penetration…”
Could very well be that it’s indirectly stimulating the Skene’s gland…
Don’t worry, I’m sure science will “get to the bottom of this” at some point in time.
How To Last Longer During Anal Sex
Being that the anus is so tight around your penis during sex, it makes for some very strong stimulation, which can lead to a quicker orgasm.
A few things you can do are wear the orgasms that numb your penis, take a small dose of an SSRI like dapoxetine (prescribed by many doctors for PE), or stopping your ejaculation during orgasm using the male multiple orgasm technique, allowing you to have several consecutive orgasms without losing any erection strength. This is what I use to last longer during regular doggy style sex, along with anal.
For an in-depth guide to the female orgasm, such as how to give her super powerful, back-to-back VAGINAL orgasms during penetration (in only a couple of minutes), and exercises to last longer during sex, how to make her squirt, how to stay hard after orgasm, add some length and girth to your penis to make penetration more effective, and more, take a look here…
-David Carreras aka Mr. Manpower Mr. Manpower’s Guide to Overall Manhood Enhancement
The Ultimate Sex Guide for Men… “male potency without drugs” www.MisterManpower.net
As a man who’s been in a committed relationship for a long time, I know there could be days where you are just lazy, and sex is not this amazing, glorious event that everyone says it is.
Sometimes, on the day when you are most lazy, and you’d rather kick and binge watch some Netflix, while eating homemade nachos and cheese…
…This is the day your wife needs you to express your undying love to her… this is the day where she feels unloved… this is the day where she wants to complain that you don’t have sex enough (although you just had sex yesterday… they forget, don’t they?).
So what do you?
You make her orgasm quickly… get yours, and go back to the Netflix and nachos.
I’ve seen it so many times, SOURCE AFTER SOURCE saying that it takes a woman 20 – 40 minutes on average to have an orgasm…
I’m a pragmatist by nature.
When I hear songs about how a man wants to make love to a woman the whole night, I can’t help but ask why so long?
Just like, when a man brags that he can go on having sex for 2 hours… I can do this as well, but why?.
I enjoy foreplay (yes I love tits… I can play with them, suck on them for a while, and I love my girl’s hands playing with my penis and my testicles), but even including the foreplay, sex usually lasts no more than 10 – 15 minutes. BECAUSE I CHOOSE FOR IT TO LAST THAT LONG.
I can make it last for an hour or more if I’d like, but I don’t have that sort of patience.
And 95% of the time, my girl is having an orgasm in under five minutes… by the time 10, 15 minutes has passed, my girl has come twice, or three times, I get my big bang, and we’re both content and satisfied.
So 20 to 40 minutes for a woman to orgasm?
Get outta heeaaaaaa…..
How To Make Your Wife Orgasm Faster
Here’s how to make a woman orgasm quickly, and confirm your never-ending bond in just a few minutes.
1) Clitoris Is Key To The Female Orgasm
I normally make my girl orgasm in a few minutes without any manual or oral stimulation, just penetration. But when I penetrate, I make sure to put pressure on the clitoris on the in- and out-stroke.
If she knows how to get herself off while on-top, this is a great learning lesson – take notes on how she rubs back and forth rapidly, almost as if the penis doesn’t even play a role (although it does… it stimulates her g-spot). Try and replicate this motion when on top.
Even if you put her legs on your shoulders, prop her butt up on a pillow, and prod her g-spot, this is still the internal part of the “clitoral cluster”.
The clit Is key to her having an orgasm.
(Tip:if you DO decide to go down on her, even for a few minutes, this will make the amount of time you’ll need to penetrate her even shorter. Long, hard tongue-strokes against the clit, coupled with fingering her with a “come here” motion, works wonders – keep this technique up too long though, and she’s finishing in your mouth, and not with your penis! Not always a bad thing!)
2) Get In Her Head With Dirty Talk
A woman’s mind plays an EXTREMELY important role in how quickly and powerfully she orgasms.
Studies have shown that women can actually have orgasms with thought alone. I remember watching this documentary on TLC, where scientists at Rutgers used an MRI to study the brainwaves of a woman who “thought herself” into orgasm, and the brain pattern was identical to a woman having an orgasm from physical stimulation. She indeed gave herself an orgasm, solely with thought.
Other studies have shown how powerful of an effect a woman’s mind plays in her ability to orgasm.
Get her thinking dirty, and she’ll be a step closer to having an orgasm.
Don’t let her mind wander to the laundry she has to do… you’ll never get out of that bedroom.
3) Stimulate All The Erotic Areas She Likes
I underline that “she likes” because you might do something, thinking it’s turning her on, and meanwhile, it’s actually pissing her off…
For instance, one woman may like when you suck on her earlobes and kiss her neck during sex… and another girl may hate it…
However, once you find out what she DOES like, as long as you are penetrating her correctly, these extras will make her orgasm faster.
The nipples seem to be a universal orgasm accelerator for all women though…
When I’m on top, I try and suck her nipples, but have to contort myself to reach them, so sometimes I grab a breast with my hand, and rub against the nipples with my thumb or index finger… this combined with some dirty talk (and proper penetration), usually takes her over the edge.
With her on top, the effect is even stronger. Sometimes she tries to hold out…but if I get her hair, and pull it into a pony tail with one hand, softly pulling her head back, get my other finger, and circle/finger her butthole, and suck on her tits at the same time? She’s a goner…. no holding out on that one.
How To Make Your Wife (or Girlfriend) Orgasm Quickly
You may be thinking that I possibly have a girl who orgasms easily. Yes, she has her days where she doesn’t take that much work, but I’ve replicated this ability to make a woman orgasm during sex with SEVERAL other women before her.
It’s all in the penetration techniques, combined with the ability to delay ejaculation at least to some degree, and yes, the extras.
However, I used the complete opposite. When I first started out having sex, I NEVER was able to get women off.
Luckily, I researched and practiced, practiced, practiced… That turning point when I was finally able to give women orgasms, and quickly, was a life-changer. I’ll be happy to share with you everything I’ve learned about giving women orgasms during penetration and lasting longer, here:
If you would like to learn how to make your wife or girlfriend orgasm faster (or orgasm at all, if you’ve never given her one), click here…
If you’d like to learn how to delay ejaculation mentally, and how to last longer during sex naturally, click here…
Have a good one!
-David Carreras aka Mr. Manpower Mr. Manpower’s Guide to Overall Manhood Enhancement www.mistermanpower.net
Premature ejaculation was the number one problem I faced when I first started out having sex (and for a number of years after…).
It kept me from being able to satisfy a woman in bed, which oftentimes made me shy away from sexual encounters.
When I would get a girlfriend, and we’d start having sex, without failure, the same thing would occur:
I’d get extremely aroused during foreplay… the “eroticness” of the situation was almost too much to handle. If I was “super horny”, which was most of the time, then it felt like my penis was red-hot and ready to bust before I even ENTERED the girl. One or two touches too many, and it would set my penis off.
Even On My “Best” Days I Was Not Good
Even on a good day, where I was able to maintain a little more ejaculation control, I’d last maybe two or three minutes TOPS before my penis reached “red-hot” status… and once it got to this level, there was no turning back.
I Tried Everything To Last Longer During Sex Naturally – Nothing Worked – Seemed Like A Hopeless Search After A While
The only way that this red hot arousal in my penis would turn off was by ejaculating, and everything I did to PREVENT ejaculation, only lead me CLOSER to it.
I could pull out and wait… I could think distracting thoughts… I could jump up and down blowing air on my dick to try and cool it off… but no matter what I did, no longer how long I waited, as soon as I put it back in her, I was just a couple of strokes away from busting.
And this was how sex was for me… for a long time.
I began drinking and smoking marijuana before sex, because I noticed I had improved ejaculation control when under the influence of these substances, but even with this extra “help”, I STILL wasn’t lasting long enough to give women orgasms.
(Plus it pushed me to drink and smoke more, nearly every time I was with a woman, in order to try and “improve my performance”… not the smartest, and healthiest, long term solution).
What I Found Out DOESN’T Work To Last Longer In Bed
If you search online for how to overcome premature ejaculation, I bet you’re coming across the same advice over and over… and the advice given is most likely not helping very much..
And that’s why you’re here… because you’ve had no luck so far.
Well no worries, I’ll show you what you need to do to last longer in bed, but before we get there, let me show you what to stay away from (and which seems to be the main advice EVERYWHERE).
The Squeeze Technique
Pulling out, and squeezing behind the head of your penis, in order to last longer during sex, doesn’t work for a number of reasons….
1) The arousal “erasing’ effect this technique has, I never experienced it. If my gun was red-hot and ready to blast, there was NOTHING I could do to cool it off. Squeezing behind the head did nothing.
2) The definition of premature ejaculation is ejaculating before you or your partner would like… and finishing before a girl has had an orgasm is most likely finishing before you or she would like. A woman needs NON-STOP penetration to have an orgasm during sex... and taking a break to pull out and squeeze your penis RIGHT AS AROUSAL REACHES IT’S HIGHEST POINT is a surefire way to prevent her from reaching orgasm.
Yes, women usually need a little more stimulation than a man in order to reach orgasm. This can be “evened out” by going down on her for a while before beginning penetration, as well as penetrating her with pressure on the clit. But to in most cases, her orgasm is JUST A BIT after yours… so you need to plow through FULL SPEED WITHOUT LETTING UP if you ever want to make her orgasm.
The Stop and Start Technique
See above…
Sure, you can extend your OVERALL performance time by a few minutes by constantly stopping and starting up again, but if you’re not giving her an orgasm, you’re not doing anything.
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with slowing down the pace once in a while, or even stopping before you cum (and she’s about to cum), to improve excitement, but if this is the sole method you are relying on to overcome your PE, then good luck!
Distracting Your Thoughts During Sex
Not allowing yourself to concentrate on overly-arousing visuals and thoughts DOES help you to last longer during sex… better than the above two physical tricks. Also, your mind plays a stronger role in how long you can last than any physical technique does (one night I was able to last forever during sex – at the peak of my premature ejaculation days – because I was half asleep… see details here).
However, pulling yourself away from the situation, disconnecting from the sex and the arousal, can allow your arousal to run amok, unseen… and by the time you are in the red-hot arousal zone, you will be too disconnected from the situation to regain control.
The idea is to keep your arousal in check, but to be fully aware of it… more on that later.
Ejaculating Right Before Sex
Don’t go into sex with a loaded gun… this is the advice many men give for overcoming premature ejaculation.
If you haven’t ejaculated in a while, you will ejaculate sooner, so it IS a good to ejaculate some time before sex. But ejaculating RIGHT before sex can be a problem, especially if you have a strong refractory period… you may not be able to get it up during sex, or keep a full strength erection. You will also take out all the joy and excitement of sex.
So ejaculate the night before, or maybe early in the day, but in my premature ejaculation days, even on round two, I still wasn’t able to make her get off.
What DOES Work To Last Longer During Sex UNNATURALLY
Although I am all for natural ways to last longer in bed, I believe that what needs to be done to fix your problems in bed, needs to be done.
Premature ejaculation can be a relationship killer (more specifically her not having an orgasm during sex / fully satisfying sex). If this means taking a low dose of an SSRI to remedy the problem, then you should seriously consider it.
SSRI’s
Having low serotonin levels, our happy neurotransmitter, has been linked to premature ejaculation. We can’t really control, or manipulate, our serotonin levels on our own, although certain foods and activities have been shown to slightly temporarily boost serotonin production.
However, the amount of serotonin you normally have circulating in your brain is pretty much predetermined.
Selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs), a class of antidepressants, have been shown to increase the amount of serotonin circulating in the brain, and as a fun side effect, GREATLY delay ejaculation. Doctors oftentimes prescribe SSRI’s solely for the treatment of premature ejaculation.
The downside to SSRI’s are the side effects. SSRI’s can cause fatigue, low sex drive, changes in your personality, and weight gain. However, studies have shown that on-demand use (only on the days you are going to have sex) of dapoxetine has been shown to delay ejaculation as well, meanwhile minimizing side effects.
Extended Pleasure Condoms
Certain condoms have benzocaine, a desensitizer.
On the packages of these condoms it describes benzocaine as a “mild” desensitizer, but the effect is actually quite powerful… you will feel nothing in your penis.
There are mixed reviews on these condoms to last longer, with some men saying they work great, while others complaining they numb the penis too much, causing the man to lose his erection (due to the lack of sensation of stimulation), or causing the woman to become numb as well, which defeats the purpose.
Worth experimenting with, though.
Regular Condoms
Regular condoms are a great sidekick to a good sexual performance, because 1) you will feel SLIGHTLY less, allowing you to maintain better ejaculation control, and 2) you won’t have to pull out when you reach orgasm… you can keep going. And if your erection is hard enough after ejaculation, then you should be able to reach her orgasm, which should be right after yours.
Stud 100 with Lidocaine
Similar to the chemical in the extended pleasure condoms, lidocaine will greatly numb your penis.
I experimented with Stud 100 when I was in my late teens, and while the spray would literally allow me to last forever during sex, the same issue would occur as mentioned above – so much desensitization that I wasn’t sure if I had an erection anymore, and it would rub off on the girl I was having sex with as well.
Now, on to the main course…
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What ACTUALLY Works To Overcome Premature Ejaculation Naturally
Luckily, through years of weeding through all the BS, I’ve learned how to conquer my premature ejaculation.
I can now last as long as I want during sex, and I’ll assure you, even if you have a “quick trigger” like I used to, you too can learn to last MUCH longer.
The following methods work, and don’t require medication or tricks.
Kegels/PC Squeezes
A recent study has shown that men with severe, life-long premature ejeaculation who performed kegels/pc squeezes on a regular basis for 12 weeks, were able to almost QUADRUPLE the amount of time they could last during sex.
In order to reap the ejaculation control benefits of a strong pc muscle, you need to make sure you are kegeling properly. If you’ve done your kegels correctly, after an exercise session, the base of your penis should look temporarily thicker. (Tip: do not allow any neighboring muscles to jump in and help).
Also, relax the pc muscle completely (as well as your entire pelvic and midsection) during sex… tensing the pc muscle repeatedly during sex can actually cause you to ejaculate sooner, because it stimulates the prostate.
Concentrating On The Clitoris Before And During Sex
Remember, the definition of premature ejaculation is finishing before you or your partner would like. So if you can only last three minutes, but you can make her orgasm in those three minutes, then you won’t be prematurely ejaculating!
Make your strokes count!
That was my main problem when younger… a complete ignorance as to the importance of the clitoris to the female orgasm, and how to penetrate properly. So even if a 6-pack of Heineken and a hit off a bowl helped me last 7 minutes, I still wasn’t “hitting it right”.
Real, orgasm-producing sex is NOT what it looks like in porn.
It’s not about “banging away” at her… it’s more of a rubbing movement. Push hard into her clit on the in- and out-stroke, with your pelvis. This will shorten the amount of time it takes for her to orgasm.
That’s why so many articles have that BS about it taking a woman 20 – 40 minutes to have an orgasm… because these men are so ignorant as to how to penetrate!
I give my girl multiples in under 5 minutes (and have done this with MANY girls before her, so it’s not just a fluke).
Ejaculation Control Training – Develop The Mind State Of A Long-Laster
You need to become more aware of your arousal process, before and during sex.
Learn about the anxiety that arises when you are becoming aroused… see the guilt you feel when becoming horny. Learn to “step back” and observe your thoughts and feelings, removed from the situation. Subtract all the negative “extras” that get in the way of clear mental ejaculation control.
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During sex, watch your arousal slowly start to grow, and build. Keep it in check, so that it stays low and “plateaus”… don’t allow that exponential climb to ejaculation, because as we all know, once you get to the point of no return, no amount of “squeezing” or “stopping and starting” will get you back.
Keep the arousal in check from the get-go, and you can penetrate rough, hard and fast, and as long as your mind is strong, you will be able to last as long as you want.
Don’t let the arousal run wild without your say so in the matter…
As mentioned, your mind is the strongest tool you have towards ejaculation control.
There are solo exercises you can do “cultivate” this proper mind-state. Almost like a hypnosis, that re-teaches your thinking and feeling about sex, allowing you to last much longer. For more on these exercises delay ejaculation / last longer during sex naturally, click here…
Dry Orgasms – Multiple Male Orgasms
Your ejaculation and orgasm are two separate events happening simultaneously. Learn how to stop the ejaculation during orgasm, and you can keep your erection at 100%, and continue on penetrating.
This means that you can eliminate your refractory period, so that orgasm is no longer the finish line of your performance.
Now that I’ve mastered male multiple orgasms, I can have several orgasms in a row without losing any erections strength, and can last as long as I’d like. It’s a powerful technique to know, but one that needs a good teacher in order to really get it down.
For more info on the male multiple orgasm technique, click here…
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Overcoming Premature Ejaculation, Not A Hopeless Mission After All
You’ll find that as you get older, ejaculation control may also naturally comes to you, but some men do not ever outgrow their premature ejaculation without some help. Whether it be medical, or a psychological/natural solution, overcoming premature ejaculation will bring a peace of mind to you, and a “mending effect” to your relationship.
So if you are currently suffering from PE, do something about it, and know that it can be defeated.
Ever have problems getting an erection before sex?
A whole gamut of emotions may attack you at once: self doubt, self consciousness / embarrassment, fear over potential testosterone issues, a near anxiety attack…
Followed by more self doubt, depression, concern, in the following days, etc…
I know, because I’ve been there. It’s not fun.
Well either way, over the years, I’ve seen all sorts of reactions from women when I couldn’t get it up.
Just like us, women usually experience a mix of the following emotions. Learning these different types of reactions to mental ED will help you better understand their state of mind, know what to address later, and know enough about it that you won’t have to waste precious brain power thinking about it during sex.
1) “Am I Not Attractive?”
When you experience mental ED, and have problems getting it up, women oftentimes take it personally.
They feel like they weren’t sexy enough… like they didn’t do a good job or something. That’s why women sometimes actually LIKE when a man has premature ejaculation; because they feel like they played a role in it. That they were so good, that they made you orgasm quickly.
Little do they know that having problems getting it up can happen with the most beautiful woman, who’s EXCELLENT in bed, and premature ejaculation can happen with the ugliest beast, who just lays there, lazy.
It’s us, not them… much like the old break-up excuse.
So if you have mental block erectile dysfunction, and cannot overcome it that day… reassure her that it’s not her… that you find her very sexy, you just want nothing more than to satisfy her, and that you will overcome it.
This in itself may relieve you of a burden, bring you closer to her, and help you get an erection on command the next time around.
2) “What’s Wrong With You?”
This is really an outward expression, or defense mechanism of the “am I not attractive?” question.
They do not want to believe that it could possibly be them, so they turn around and blame it on you.
A real “in denial” woman may add some insults to it, making the situation worse… I’ve had a few women look at me with disgust, and tell me things along the lines of “what’s wrong with you?”… or “man up!”… or “are you gay?”
If you are dealing with one of these type of women (usually bratty women), then you may want to consider if you even want to have sex with her, as this MAY complicate things in some situations, and may make her want to be around more…
However, sexual difficulties are usually complicated and painful for both parties, so if she is a bit “blaming”, but not overdoing it, just be understanding.
3) “It Better Not Happen Again”
Some women may be a bit understanding, but will raise the bar a bit, and tell you not to let it happen again.
Or they may think it, and not tell you…
I had one girl who was AMAZINGLY hot, who I experienced mental erectile dysfunction with ONCE, and never gave me another shot…
This usually happens when the girl is very hot, combined with high maintenance, and has guys chasing after her… they have options, and don’t want to deal with a man who is a “sexual weakling”.
(Note: if you have problems getting it up, I know you’re not a sexual weakling — because it happened to me — it’s just a mental block, and once you overcome, it you’ll be a beast again… but some women don’t see it like this, and don’t have patience).
Some women may put up with it a couple of times, but without notice, depart.
Chances are, you’re better off without this type of woman as well, because she was going to be a heartbreak down the line anyway.
Let nature dictate what happens. It was meant to be.
4) “It’s Alright, It’ll Be Okay”
If you have problems getting an erection, and the girl is perfectly calm, and happy with you anyway, then you’ve got a good girl.
This is the type of girl that will let you work through the mental erectile dysfunction, and get your erections back… she’s confident in herself, she’s confident in you, and she’s patient…
…problem is not many women react purely like this.
We humans are a complex mix of emotions, some “positive”, some “negative”… so she may be accepting, but at the same time feeling a little down about herself, or may slightly lash out a little bit, if it occurs a few time… that’s why it’s good to understand all these reactions.
So Then How DO We Overcome Mental Erectile Dysfunction?
Mental erectile dysfunction has happened to almost every man I’ve ever spoken to about sex.
It is extremely common.
So if you are facing it, don’t feel like you are a freak of nature, or not manly enough, or may have a hormonal issue… your erection is a very “fickle” thing.
It needs all the proper “prerequisites”. Some of these include:
Comfort
Relaxation
A high mental arousal (“horniness”)
Patience
Some physical stimulation
Part of overcoming mental ED, or psychological ED, or sexual performance anxiety (all the same thing… you know what it is, a psychological wall or block to getting hard), is to just concentrate on the task at hand = getting horny.
That’s your job. Get horny.
“getting hard” or “forcing an erection” is not your job. Your job is to get horny, and then your erection knows what to do.
Don’t think 3 steps ahead, before you’re there.
Don’t worry about if you are going to last long, or if she’s going to have an orgasm… just get horny, get hard, line it up, and penetrate.
THEN you think about the next step.
Till then, erase all other thoughts then to get horny.
Don’t even think about what SHE’s thinking. I gave you her potential thoughts, so you have an understanding, and so you don’t have to think about them. Because the truth is:
It makes no difference what she’s thinking!
You can’t change what she’s thinking…. she’s going to think what she wants. Worrying doesn’t help anything. Just remove this “assuming game” from your mind altogether, as it’s taking up precious space in your head that should be used for building arousal.
The less you worry about what she’s thinking, the more you can concentrate on getting horny. Use your mental resources wisely!
Very interesting news day, today folks!
Out of the 31 women who responded positively in the survey, 94% had had an orgasm during anal sex!
If you search online for how to overcome premature ejaculation, I bet you’re coming across the same advice over and over… and the advice given is most likely not helping very much..
